The Blackmagic KRW Support Persuasion Thread

This topic contains 12 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Mazze Aderhold 1 year, 8 months ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
  • #826

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant

    The recent post by Jonathon Murphy over on the Kinefinity Facebook Group raised (or “resurrected”) one of the most vital subjects to the future growth of the Kinefinity Digital Cinema Camera ecosystem: Persuading Blackmagic Design to support the KRW codec in DaVinci Resolve.

    My comment on that thread:

    “The most important question is about what ultimate benefits will Blackmagic get from supporting KRW, and thus aide their camera division’s most direct rival and competitor? Finding the answer to this question, and then leveraging that answer in a chorus of mass persuasion from this community, is our best shot at actually realizing the goal of getting Blackmagic to support KRW in DaVinci Resolve. We must determine the strongest arguments, and then take those ideas to every BMD manager, relevant forum thread, incessantly but with love and utterly focused on that which will obviously benefit Blackmagic as a company. “What’s in it for them?” is not only a relevant question, it is ultimately the only question, from which all others will find their answers.”

    Let’s pool our ideas and form an actionable strategy, then execute our vision to finally get Blackmagic Design to see how they can directly benefit from supporting KRW.

    I’d like to invite any and all ideas, however well thought out or fleeting, and gather them here for discussion.


    To get it going, let me propose what seems like a somewhat obvious albeit slightly painful solution:

    Make Blackmagic Design a profit earning strategic partner in Kinefinity’s growth by supporting the KRW codec in DaVinci Resolve Studio.

    – A Kinefinity camera owner rate of $795 would put a sizable profit into the BMD pocket for every Kinefinity camera sold whose owner is willing to pay for KRW support

    – The Kinefinity company does not have to subsidize this effort in any way, other than to fully back the effort and embrace working with BMD to implement KRW support in DaVinci Resolve Studio

    – Kinefinity owners enjoy an “opt in” added value and choice with their camera purchase, a sort of upper tier upgrade

    – Create a “Shot on Kinefinity, graded in Resolve” digital campaign to create brand awareness and fuel growth for both companies as well as create opportunities for Kinefinity camera owners


    Kinefinity has some of the best color out there, rivaling Arri and easily competing with RED and others. If we can marry Kinefinity color science and our great community with the grading and workflow power of DaVinci Resolve, amazing work will spring up all over the place.

    Let’s hear some other ideas!!

    #1242

    raafi
    Moderator

    I love your “Shot on Kinefinity, graded in Resolve” idea. And also your idea of persuading Kinefinity to bundle Resolve with high-end packages.

    Ultimately BlackMagic Design’s move into making cameras complicates its relationship with other camera makers in the same way that Netflix moving into making content complicates its relationship with other content providers. BMD must be aware of this, but that doesn’t solve BMD’s immediate problem which is: though they may want to own the full stack eventually, right now the best way to position the company is on the strength of its high-end postproduction tools. Tools that have always been camera-agnostic.

    One potentially compelling argument for them to support .KRW is the size of the Chinese market. I’m assuming that Kinefinity has a stronger position there than it does in the english-speaking world. And even if Kine is a rising player there, BMD should want to support a rising player in what is sure to be the large and growing market in China.

    In the English-speaking world, Kinefinity is poised (as is BMD) to be a strong player in the worlds of middle-brow commercial work, and independent features.

    #1243

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant

    Raafi – –

    You described Blackmagic’s basic conflict of interest between their camera and software divisions. Their support of codecs like R3D and ARRIRAW bring their strongest product, DaVinci Resolve, to the widest group of higher end power users, from semi-pros all the way up to many of the best post houses worldwide. Kinefinity presents a somewhat unique situation for BMD, I think, since no other smaller cinema camera manufacturer has succeeded in becoming a credible player in the way that both Kinefinity and Blackmagic both have in the last several years. I agree with your conclusion that BMD’s strongest move is to leverage the strength of Resolve and their post tools.

    To make a truly supportable presentation to BMD, we ought to find a way to get access to user data from Kinefinity, such as existing camera owners, quarterly and annual projections for 2017, marketing and sales strategies to grow those numbers, etc. Regarding BMD’s priorities, I would also guess that BMD (and Kinefinity) may be looking at the growing market of entry level cinema camera shooters as the bigger fish in the long run, but that’s at best a speculation on my part. That possibility notwithstanding, the potential for BMD to take $795 in revenue for an $8000 (ballpark, give or take of course) sale for Kinefinity is a pretty tasty share for implementing KRW into and distributing their existing software. I guess those hard numbers and supportable projections for Kinefinity will matter to BMD; how many of us will it take for BMD to recoup the R&D/coding costs to implement and then support KRW going forward?

    #1244

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant

    raafi wrote:

    One potentially compelling argument for them to support .KRW is the size of the Chinese market. I’m assuming that Kinefinity has a stronger position there than it does in the english-speaking world. And even if Kine is a rising player there, BMD should want to support a rising player in what is sure to be the large and growing market in China.

    In the English-speaking world, Kinefinity is poised (as is BMD) to be a strong player in the worlds of middle-brow commercial work, and independent features.

    China presents enormous growth opportunities for sure. As for Kinefinity shooters in China compared with other global markets, from my anecdotal experience I know several production companies with Kinefinity cameras, but I don’t know any with Blackmagic cameras. The high end standards are Alexa Mini and RED, with the mid end productions using C300s pretty frequently. Nearly all of those are rentals, though, while the houses that have Kine cameras are owner/ops. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, though. I have seen one or two amateurs make first films etc with the Blackmagic Production Camera, though only a few.

    #1245

    raafi
    Moderator

    Another argument may be that by failing to support .krw, BMD is artificially propping up the market for Assimilate Scratch.

    #1246

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant

    raafi wrote:


    Another argument may be that by failing to support .krw, BMD is artificially propping up the market for Assimilate Scratch.

    Definitely — would any of us even consider Scratch if not for buying Kinefinity cameras? My guess is nope :ugeek:

    #1247

    Mazze Aderhold
    Participant

    Nicholas A Skinner wrote:


    raafi wrote:


    Another argument may be that by failing to support .krw, BMD is artificially propping up the market for Assimilate Scratch.

    Definitely — would any of us even consider Scratch if not for buying Kinefinity cameras? My guess is nope :ugeek:

    Possibly, because you’ve never taken a serious look at it?

    It’s so much better, flexible and faster than Resolve in many regards.

    Not considering it, because it actually is not a freeware is not really an excuse.

    Especially with the new high quality debayer in SCRATCH 8.6, you *should* consider it, no matter if you’re a Kinefinity user or not.

    Even if you’re just using it to transcode KRW – it’s amazingly fast, compared to both, Kinestation and Resolve. And it can also do ProRes on Windows, which Resolve will not be able to do any soon, if ever.

    Seriously, it’s great app and 200 bucks for it is not asked too much, given the value you get out of it.

    #1248

    VinceCheong
    Participant
    #1249

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant
    #1250

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant

    Mazze Aderhold wrote:


    Nicholas A Skinner wrote:


    raafi wrote:


    Another argument may be that by failing to support .krw, BMD is artificially propping up the market for Assimilate Scratch.

    Definitely — would any of us even consider Scratch if not for buying Kinefinity cameras? My guess is nope :ugeek:

    Possibly, because you’ve never taken a serious look at it?

    It’s so much better, flexible and faster than Resolve in many regards.

    Not considering it, because it actually is not a freeware is not really an excuse.

    Especially with the new high quality debayer in SCRATCH 8.6, you *should* consider it, no matter if you’re a Kinefinity user or not.

    Even if you’re just using it to transcode KRW – it’s amazingly fast, compared to both, Kinestation and Resolve. And it can also do ProRes on Windows, which Resolve will not be able to do any soon, if ever.

    Seriously, it’s great app and 200 bucks for it is not asked too much, given the value you get out of it.

    Scratch is definitely a powerhouse app, no doubt, and used by many high end post houses. The UX for me is about as frustrating an experience as I’ve ever had, which is to say i very rarely feel that way when learning new software. Maybe it’s just evidence of some profound intellectual deficit on my part, although other software such as Resolve, PP, FCP7, FCPX, Logic, Pro Tools, and all sorts of other pro video and audio platforms never gave me the same intense desire to smash my face into the sidewalk and leap in front of a bullet train. But again, I felt like it was as much about my very right-brained idiocy as anything intrinsic to the app itself. To those who can easily and masterfully make the most of Scratch, I tip my hat.

    #1251

    Mazze Aderhold
    Participant

    Hi Nicolas,

    well, I agree, SCRATCH’s UI is not straight forward.

    However, once you got the concept, it’ll be amazingly fast.

    The comparison to PP, FCP7, FCPX, Logic, Pro Tools is a bit too far-fetched imho as those are editing/audio apps (and for the live of me, I find ProTools and Logic far from being straight forward, really).

    I mean.. look at any of the more specialised apps out there – be it Flame, Nuke, Avid, Mistika, or even Baselight, Rio, or Lustre – those are also have their own UI methodology, which might be not as straight-forward to learn as Resolve’s is, but colorists who at some point got around the way it’s working, are immensely fast on those systems.

    It is no different for SCRATCH – and while I agree, it takes a second longer than Resolve, it’ll pay off.

    The main thing to get your head around is the concept of CONstruct and Player in SCRATCH.

    Maybe invest 5 minutes to watch this video:

    https://vimeo.com/141554260

    And, in case you should re-consider, maybe this one:

    https://vimeo.com/99841876

    Else, we do have a very responsive support-crew happy to answer any questions you have.

    Also, if you have an idea for a tutorial targeted at Kinefinity users, that we could produce, please also feel free to let me know and I’ll try to get it done.

    Cheers,

    Mazze

    Edit: I’m just realizing, I’m hijacking this thread – will leave this here, but maybe we can discuss on another thread about how to use SCRATCH 😉 .

    #1252

    Nicholas A Skinner
    Participant

    Hi Mazze –

    It’s absolutely helpful to get this sort of feedback from the Scratch team on this thread! So no, it’s not hijacking in my opinion.

    One of the top motivations for the very idea of getting wider KRW support in Resolve (and hopefully PP, FCPX etc) is that most of us Kinefinity users are already familiar with those platforms, and have no experience with Scratch. For users like me, Scratch feels so alien and even counter-intuitive, which has everything to do with a sort of crystalized idea of what the UI and UX should be based on other software.

    I came to video post from an audio production background. I guess one reason why I have that background at all may be because platforms like Logic came somewhat easily to me and were probably a better fit for my way of thinking. Going from that audio world to FCP 5 back in the day felt totally natural, and from FCP 7 to FCPX and PP and Resolve and so on was a similarly natural side step. Scratch I always felt was something I knew was quite powerful, but with a UI that felt so different that it was reminding me of when I had to learn basic Unix functions back in college (which also drove me nuts — i am definitely not cut out for that! lol).

    I think that the typical user of programs like Flame, Lustre, Baselight and so on is much more likely to even know about Scratch, and will feel more at ease with having to learn a new approach to the UI. Typical Kinefinity users, on the other hand, are largely not post power users, but rather are more in the category of smaller indie productions, one man band shooting, DSLR filmmakers, shooters who largely handle creative, production and post themselves. These types of artists I suspect are using Premiere Pro, After Effects, FCP 7 and FCPX, sometimes also Resolve. For that type of user, maybe you know maybe not, but Scratch can seem very daunting and counter-intuitive.

    For example, just handling a simple project is not so obvious, given the tutorials I have seen, such as:

    *How to do a basic short project edit, color and export*

    •Create a project with desired settings such as edit in KRW for 4K ProRes 4444XQ output

    •Import media

    •Cut together the shots on a timeline

    •Perform basic color adjustments such as adjusting white balance, exposure, LGG

    •How to adjust the hue, saturation, luminance of individual colors quickly and easily — this is SO easy in Adobe Camera RAW — is it as easy in Scratch? I still have no idea. ACR is so intuitive — take a look at that interface — this is what is called good UX design for non-power users.

    •How to adjust the clarity/sharpness

    •and finally how to export and choose export settings

    In FCP 7 for example, you can just hit “Command E” and it will bring up an export window where we can easily set typical outputs such as h.264 for youtube and vimeo and prores for further editing deliveries. I can set the bitrate, frame dimensions, audio settings, streaming settings etc all within one super easy to grasp window. With Scratch, I felt like these options were actually more limited than even FCP 7! I must have been missing something major. But then WHY did I not easily find it? Because I am an idiot? I felt like an idiot, though. A very negative user experience for me, i must say.

    The Scratch tutorials seem intended for the type of user you described, who is already fluent with other high end post tools, but not at all keeping in mind the entry level post user who may be very fluent with FCP and PP but a total fish out of water with Scratch.

    Scratch would find a much, much larger market share and user base if it would take notes from FCP, PP and Resolve, all of which are quite powerful, but still manage to be accessible to the user who is just taking the step of upping their game to the next level.

    Hope this helps~!

    #1253

    Mazze Aderhold
    Participant

    Hi Nicholas,

    sorry for the long silence – I was away from my machine for quite a while.

    Thanks for the elaborate answer!

    I do understand that the SCRATCH UI is as easy to grasp right away, like Resolve’s.

    Also, I’m afraid the UI (and whole structure behind it) is not gonna change any soon.

    But from the tutorial side, I’m thinking about doing something that you outlined above:

    *How to do a basic short project edit, color and export*

    •Create a project with desired settings such as edit in KRW for 4K ProRes 4444XQ output

    •Import media

    •Cut together the shots on a timeline

    •Perform basic color adjustments such as adjusting white balance, exposure, LGG

    •How to adjust the hue, saturation, luminance of individual colors quickly and easily — this is SO easy in Adobe Camera RAW — is it as easy in Scratch? I still have no idea. ACR is so intuitive — take a look at that interface — this is what is called good UX design for non-power users.

    •How to adjust the clarity/sharpness

    •and finally how to export and choose export settings

    Please let me know, if anything else comes to mind that should be included in a “SCRATCH for Kinefinity users” tutorial.

    I’d very much like to get something like this on the way and see how that might help 🙂 .

    Cheers,

    Mazze

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